The buzz has culminated in Dan Loney's post from last evening in which he compares the composition of the USMNT camps from 2002, 2006, and 2010. It's a post I have major problems with, and to me it's Loney's worst work in months. I found myself wondering if Dan farmed out the ghost writing responsibilities to Duane or Kartik.
Dan's major contention is that most regular USMNT players are playing or moving abroad, and therefore the talent level in MLS is becoming weaker. Not only that, the current camp roster is a collection of pathetic jokers, most of whom shouldn't bother hoping for a roster spot.
My first problem is that when Dan talks about the 2002 January camp, he suggests that MLS sent more players to the World Cup roster than it actually did.
Sixteen of the players called up in 2002 made the roster.
Except that two of those players were not based in MLS (Eddie Lewis and Frankie Hejduk), and one of the other players was one of ten alternates (Vanney) who only briefly made it onto the roster when Chris Armas got hurt, and was ultimately replaced by a European based player (Cherundolo) in the end due to injury. Furthermore, when the squad was originally announced, only 12 MLS based players were on it. So unless Dan somehow thinks that Joe Max-Moore wasn't actually playing for Everton in 2002, I have no idea who the 14th MLS player would be.
*At most* 12 MLS players out of that camp would have been on the final World Cup roster. Not 16. The final number was 11.
Regarding the 2006 squad, Dan is correct that 11 MLS-based players from the January camp made the final roster, including Chris Albright replacing the injured Frankie Hejduk. However, by the time the World Cup rolled around, John O'Brian had signed for Chivas USA in a last gasp effort to keep playing. Not only that, five other players on the roster had spent time in MLS and had been in present at the 2002 January camp. In fact, they were all in MLS at the time of that 2002 camp. So at most we're looking at a one or two player decrease, with a total increase of players on the roster with MLS experience.
Then when Dan analyzes the players not called into camp this year, he urges an asterisk placed next to Stuart Holden and Landon Donovan. So, therefore, in 2002, should we not also put an asterisk next to Brian McBride and Landon Donovan? After the Gold Cup McBride immediately was loaned to Everton and obtained a permanent move to Fulham the next winter, and Donovan was still technically a Leverkusen player. And why not asterisk Clint Mathis and Damarcus Beasley, both of whom moved to Europe in the next 18 months?
Now what's undeniable is that the 2009 Confederations Cup roster contained only 5 players based in MLS, and based on the performance in that tournament, all those players became significantly more appealing to clubs abroad. So if there are 5 MLS based players on the final World Cup roster this year, yeah, that's significant. On the other hand, almost the whole Confederations Cup squad has played in MLS at some time.
So is the level of American MLS players really getting weaker, or is it the pool of good US players increasing while continuing to MLS continues to improve? I think it's the latter. I don't think anyone can look at the 2002 MLS season, a league with 2/3s the amount of teams, and say that the level of play was better than it was in 2009. Look at the Cup Finals, for god's sake - even with the 2009 Final played on turf, it was still played at a higher level than was the 2002 edition.
Dan concludes otherwise:
Except, last summer's Gold Cup proved there was a serious and significant gap between our front-line and our understudies.
Now I have major issues with that statement. I know you're pissed about that 5-0 thrashing, but that meltdown was less than 35 minutes of soccer, and it was the result of Bradley getting out-coached (again) and three really bad decisions by players.
So what happened? First, the introduction of Carlos Vela at halftime changed that game, and Bradley had no real response - so long as the game was 0-0, he was going to see what happened. And when the first goal came, it was due to a sort-of questionable penalty, in which a dirty Jay Heaps got out-dirtied by a Mexican player. Still, I blame Heaps, and we'll see why in a moment.
Now Bradley's response was to throw gasoline on the fire by replacing Logan Pause with Santino Quaranta. The move further exposed his defense, which was already struggling under the weight of having to lug around Heath Pearce and Heaps. But before that change got made, someone called "Clarence Goodson" (not an MLS player, incidentally) wasn't paying attention and because of his laziness, Mexico scored again. On this video, at 28 seconds, you can clearly see Goodson standing around with his arms up, not paying attention, AS THE BALL IS DELIVERED OVER HIS HEAD TO VELA. The result is Chad Marshall not being able to pick a man because he can't tell when Goodson is going to mess up again (he does) and Mexico scores. And where's Jay Heaps? Woefully out of position, pushed way too far upfield.
Now with the bad change made, on the third goal we see an again out-of-position Heaps get schooled by Vela. Then on the fourth goal Heath Pearce (not an MLS player at the time) literally watches Castro take the ball from Vela and run past him and his teammates for an uncontested goal. I don't know where Heaps is, but I'm guessing he's the guy laying on the field as Vela gets the ball. The last Mexico goal by Franco was really nice, wasn't it? Not much you can do about that.
Anyway, the thing that struck me was that Chad Marshall looked pretty bad on most of the goals, but in almost every instance he's trying to cope with major mistakes made by those around him. I really can't blame him for not stepping as aggressively as he could have on that last goal in the dying moments of the match when the US was down a player. I'd be pissed too.
For me it takes a lot of ignorance to make a blanket condemnation of the talent of current and future American MLS players based on 35 minutes of play in which Jay Heaps (now retired) played as though he'd never been on a soccer field before in his life, two players from Europe royally messed up on two goals, and Bob Bradley was woefully out-coached. The better conclusion is to ask serious questions about just what the fuck Bob Bradley thought he was doing tactically, and why the shitty performance of Heaps wasn't dealt with until Heaps himself got sent off.
So based on Dan's reasoning, it's not at all conclusive that the level of American players in MLS is actually declining. Sure, there are players moving abroad, in part because they played well in South Africa, and in part because of the collective bargaining negotiations. But when Dan says this:
I happen to be of the opinion that a strong MLS helps the US national team - after all, look how many of those Yanks Abroad (hey, that's a good name for a website) did time in the Major League. That's probably going to continue. But if MLS can't make a go of marketing future and former stars, then whence the next generation?
It makes no sense. Most of the USMNT players have played in MLS; MLS is on strong financial footing; the level of play continues to increase. I understand that MLS will have less USMNT players around to promote itself, but is that really necessary at this point? Even so, I do expect Donovan to return to MLS after the World Cup, and let's be frank, other guys will too. Not only that, the USMNT has *always* relied on European players to form the hard core. With the exception of a couple guys, the ones playing in Europe have almost always been better. And yet this:
Or, Europe will siphon off good American players faster than MLS can produce them, and we'll be back to where we were in the early to mid-90's, where Bora Miltunivoic didn't even want to count games where European-based players didn't play.
Is so laughable, I don't know where to begin.
I think players moving abroad will make it easier for MLS to bring along the next generation. And as the talent pool has increased, what we see now is an inevitable occurrence. I don't think it's a stretch to say MLS is better than it was, and so is the men's national team. If the best players are now perceived as good enough to play abroad, then that's great. At some point MLS will have the financial power to bring back some of those guys. Maybe not this year.
Let me also say that, yeah, in the short term, the best American players playing abroad could hurt MLS. But I don't think it's at all clear at the moment that will be the case. Let's wait and see how the level of play in 2010 is (I think it will be good) and how World Cup goes (we could easily crash out) before we bemoan the loss of our former "stars."
-FS
10 comments:
Oh yeah? So's your old man.
I didn't say that sixteen of the roster played in MLS at the time - although McBride was still listed as being on the Crew! What do you want from me?! - I said that sixteen guys ended up making the summer roster. I cheated by including Armas and Vanney, fine.
However, you're right to call me out for conflating that stat with the number of MLS players in camp in 2010. I don't have an apples-to-apples comparison on the roster, so I made some assumptions. You're counting what I should have counted, not what I did count. That makes me lazy and cheap, but not technically wrong. Which is the best kind of not wrong.
As to your larger point - I also fall into the small sample size fallacy. Three camps, two actual World Cups played, and two Gold Cups held years apart. If all the guys in this January camp end up in Oneonta (whoops - I mean, wherever) - then I'm way out of line.
Right now, they look like they kinda suck, though. Right now it looks like MLS is currently employing weaker players than they once did. Judging by how these players did against their peers, the 2002 team was stronger than the 2006 team, and the 2009 B-team. Maybe 2010's scrubs are as good as 2002's starters, but there's even less evidence of that.
After 2002, the league did a whole Strike Force Mission Accomplished thing when the conquering heroes of Korea returned home. If that happens this summer, who will MLS promote? While they can take credit for a good performance, should one happen, they won't be able to produce the players that actually performed.
What else. Landon Donovan, technically a Leverkusen player in 2002? Did fake you forget what happened the previous fake October, because fake you and real me were both there, God damn it.
Probably a good call out that I didn't project the 2002 and 2006 campers who left, like I did for 2010. Not only was I too lazy to do it, I was too lazy to even consider doing it. It honestly never occurred to me, and it should have. But Donovan and Holden aren't in the 2010 camp, so "technically right" once again triumphs for me.
Even so, 18 months? That's two full freaking seasons. If you give that huge a time frame, you can prove literally anything about anything in MLS.
Do I really want to line up alongside people who are saying MLS sucks, and am I proud about having given ammunition to those who want to conclude MLS is broken? Nope! I should have made it clear I was talking about a very specific issue, and not structural change. So, sorry about that, civilized world.
Also, it's not my worst post in months. I've done ten worse posts in the past month. Plus, by definition any post that has a Grand Funk video is totally awesome.
Thank you. And may God continue to bless America.
Oh, never mind, it was fifteen. Clearly I thought too highly of Bobby Convey's career.
this idea that "USMNT players going abroad is a burden on the MLS" is ludicrous. besides the fact that you get too far off topic and go into way too much detail about the facets of a broken-down play that turned into a goal, if this really were so then you don't see any stepping stones to the next competitive level. 10 years ago the USMNT consisted of mostly MLS player. Now they are Professionals abroad.
10 years ago the USMNT was struggling to get much needed experience. Now we have a core group who have not just played but competed with the best of the best. 10 years ago we had a pint sized league. Now we are a fully fledging league with support from all angles. Now the MLS players are our B squad if not after last nights performance a C squad. Stopping being such an American by demanding satisfaction now, learn some patience, for 10 years will pass quicker than you think. Will you be complaining still, then, about now?
Dan,
The point we can agree on is that as demonstrated on Saturday night, the current group of players does not in fact comprise what one would call a "good" national team. Maybe not even in CONCACAF, although I think last summer's overall body of work in the Gold Cup was pretty good. And I suppose some people out there will just blame Saturday on Jimmy Conrad. Looks like he'll need to be relying on his blogging skills sooner rather than later.
However, I don't think that necessarily means the overall level of play in MLS is declining. Right now I'm too lazy to go through and find yards of evidence to back up my point, but at the moment I think MLS is doing ok in terms of level of play compared to 2002. Furthermore, if the issue is "How many USMNT players has MLS helped develop?" then things look pretty good.
I'd wager that 2010's MLS USMNT scrubs aren't as good as 2002's MLS USMNT starters. But I'll bet they're better than the 2002 MLS USMNT scrubs.
Don't forget that last year's "Summer of Soccer" was not predicated on returning stars, but rather on games featuring MLS teams with big name clubs. It will be the same thing, and if they can bring over clubs with USMNT players on them, they will.
And I don't think I ever accused you of suggesting structural change. You do have a point on that grand funk video, though.
-FS
Anon,
I'd love to address your comment, but I have no idea what you're talking about or who you're arguing against. Good luck with that.
-FS
Hmmm, I wonder if it's perhaps in order here to take a gander into the future and see which USMNT players were developed by MLS, meaning, which played for MLS teams between the ages of their pro debut and age 23. Then compare those numbers to the same in 2002 and 2006.
Since MLS, bwess it's wittle, bitty heart, is in some way an under-23 and over-30 league, it is perhaps not telling as to the league's quality to look at the guys up and down the roster and note who is in MLS currently and who is not. Is that really the only standard to gauge MLS' quality in the USMNT arena?
Case in point: Ricardo Clark. He is a player for Eintracht Frankfurt, but is it not for the purposes of this overall discussion to say that he is an MLS product? If not for his time in MLS, would he have learned to use his right foot as well as he did when delivering it to Carlos Ruiz' side (causing the Little Pishposh to, oddly, grab his face) in 2007? Now those are the kind of skills you don't get in just any league right?
Similarly, Landon Donovan, Everton player and MLS product. Stuart Holden, Bolton player and MLS product.
There are times this is a subjective association. Is Oguchi Onyewu an MLS product? How about Brian McBride? Tim Howard? But the point is that MLS can justifiably take credit as a developer of some serious talent, whether or not that talent stays in the (amazingly underpaying) league. Correct?
Also consider you've got players like Eddie Gaven, who may never really make a difference in a USA shirt (or still might) but is still in the league and is pretty good. I suppose Pat Noonan might be another. The point is that this class of American players simply didn't exist before MLS, and has only improved over the last few years.
-FS
Martek -
Yeah, but you can't sell tickets to see guys who USED to play for you.
One of the things I didn't address, and probably should have, is how many tickets the MLS upper class actually sell. Take Ricardo Clark. Not a star. To paraphrase Miles Copeland, no one's going to ask for a refund if Ricardo Clark doesn't show.
Now, there may only be two guys in the league who answer to that description, Blanco and Beckham. Schelotto, maybe. Donovan...well, yeah, but, he didn't keep the Quakes afloat.
So why NOT send all the good players to Europe. As long as MLS can sign a couple of guys past their primes to sell tickets, and as long as the MLS players left are remotely acceptable, then no harm done.
I dunno, though. The mainstream press is picking up on Charlie Davies, for heaven's sake. Maybe a few months from now, Ricardo Clark will be a star. So it might be worth keeping guys like that at home.
Absolutely, MLS has developed some fine talent. And they're chasing it away as fast as they can grow it. We're left with screwoffs like Gaven and Kljestan.
Eddie Gaven pisses me off, though. He had all this talent, then decided he wanted to be Clint Mathis when he grew up. Clint Mathis pisses me off, too, by the way.
Dan, you get so pissed off you won't be able to enjoy the Sol's sophomore season.
Oh wait.
I think it's just time to resign ourselves to the fact that MLS is a developmental league in the global context, and will always be that way under single entity. No money means no moxie.
So in the context of that, MLS does a pretty good job of development. Retention will never be there until the wallet opens up though.
MLS may say, hey everyone's going to do single entity eventually, but until that cracked reality becomes the norm, then players will leave for more money and better quality elsewhere.
Whoa, time out cowboy.
-I think it's just time to resign ourselves to the fact that MLS is a developmental league in the global context, and will always be that way under single entity. No money means no moxie.
Fail. Single entity decidedly does *not* mean no money. Perhaps it means a slower rate of growth. But I think it is entirely possible for MLS to eventually be one of the best leagues in the world, and still single entity.
And I don't think MLS expects everyone else to become single entity, but you certainly see efforts being taken to reign in spending in other leagues.
As for Clint Mathis, good luck with that, Dan. I think the jury's still out on sleepy Eddie. At least he's not yet another Kyle Martino.
-FS
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